Raga of songs

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Post queries or discuss about ragas of tamil film songs:

The Keyboard & Swara notation used in this thread:

====================================
|  |##| |##|   |  |##| |##| |##|   |
|  |##| |##|   |  |##| |##| |##|   |
|  |R1| |R3|   |  |M2| |D1| |D3|   |
|  |##| |G2|   |  |##| |##| |N2|   |
|  |__| |__|   |  |__| |__| |__|   |
|    |    |    |    |    |    |    |  
| S  | R2 | G3 | M1 | P  | D2 | N3 |
|    | G1 |    |    |    | N1 |    |
|____|____|____|____|____|____|____|

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Old responses

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Indrajith , dont get tensed . . .i was personally emailed by a carnatic expert here in M`sia that that song belonged to hamsanadham . . by the way , is rosapoo chinna rosapoo Natabairavi? Please confirm this ONLY . . .if not natabairavi , then what?

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Indrajith-

You are right. They are different. I have mentioned that. // But bhavam and feelwise, they are a world apart.//

Dont you agree that, as for aarohanam/avarohanam - they vary by only one swaram?

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Indrajith, en tension agureenga? Smile I just heard that song once and so cud nt find if its Hamsanadham or hamsadwani. Also, am not an expert in raagas I identify raagas only by listening to songs and i dont use any scientific methods.But I do know that Hamsadwani and Hnaadam are radically different. Smile

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

even nadham and dhwani (of Hamsa!)almost are quite similar in their meanings :->

Karthik Raja I think is quite a fan of this raga..even for the Hindi films that he has composed he has used Hamsanadam wonderfully.The fims are "Grahan","december 16" etc...

Do we have a equivalent in Hindustani for Hamsanadam? and I have read that D2 is also used in Hamsanadam by a lot of carnatic musicians..maybe as a gamaka from N3..??

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Hamsanadham is known as Malarani in Hindusthani.
srini ,
Tension illa sami... mandai kayudhu..
How can one possibly compare Hamsanadham and Hamsadwani. And an explanation also which says only one swara differs. For example lets take

Melakartha 15: Mayamalava gowla :
S R1 G3 M1 P D1 N3 S S N3 D1 P M1 G3 R1 S
Melakartha 51: Kamavardhini ( Panthuvarali):
S R1 G3 M2 P D1 N3 S S N3 D1 P M2 G3 R1 S

Only one swara ( MA) differs.
Can I say both are very near and comparable.
It looks funny.

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

An appeal to all,
Please dont get stuck with the swaras of ragas.
And compare ragas based on the swaras.
Though many of you agree that Raga has swaroopa and all , we people stick to discuss things only based on swaras.

We can go ahead singing say shankarabharanam without Madhyamam and still Make it complete shankarabharanam than Kalyani.
The difference is not just in Ma but the way you sing.

And I have seen people telling that because Note X comes in the song in such and such place it is not Raga A but it is Raga B. It sounds very ridiculous.

If a song goes using swaras sa ri ga ma dha sa and goes for 90 % of the song's prayogas are like that and suddenly in one or 2 places it sprays Ni
Will you call that song as Abohi or Sri ranjani.
Though it is trying to use Ni , for me it is still Abohi.

Please try to understand and try avoiding discussions based on swaras.

I think the major problem with this forum is that some of the people who are posting are instrument players. And they tend to tilt towards swaras always. Here I am very specific about people who play Keyboards, Amature flutists, who are not well off with usage of gamakas.

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Indrajith, I second your opinion. Also it is absolute futility in trying to map every single song to some raga . Example is asking raga for songs like "elangaathu vesudhe" or "onna vida" or "good bye nanba". Even the mds don't think of any ragam in most of the cases and even they would be flabbergasted if u say this song belongs to kathyayini or some fancy name

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Indrajith, good advice, especially for a couple of people here who have the habit of mapping all IR songs(most of them dont have any characteristic gamakas/raga prayogas) to some unknown ragas with loong names(based on just notes) which even IR wouldnt be aware of.
Over-reliance on keyboards doesnt help.

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

ok. I believe i have made my point clear in my earlier post. But for everybody's benefit, what i was trying to do is, to find a 'method' to srini's 'madness'.

our friend srini was listening to a song and felt that it was hamsadwani - while sai felt it was hamsanadham (me too). I know that the above two ragas are no way close to each other. But, i went a step further to find if the swarams are playing games with srini and found that their ascend and descend (swarams. not bhavam. not personality. etc. etc.) are similar except for one swaram. (that's a fact. no dispute in that.) So, i told him - this is the deal. So, maybe - just maybe - swarams are playing games with him.

There is a difference in a Carnatic Classical musician handling a ragam and a film MD handling a ragam (for him it may not be even a ragam - but just a scale - sequence of notes.)
When a carnatic classical singer handles a ragam, he is very concious about it and makes sure he touches the jeeva-swarams and signature prayogams (prayogams that defines ragam) frequently - so as to NOT send mixed-signals.
But when it comes to a MD, he may not care about the ragam (for him it is just a sequence of notes). So, there is no guarantee that he will touch the jeeva swarams or use the signature prayogams (often or at all).
So, in the above raga pair, if the MD uses PNSR (without touching G or M2), isnt it possible for somebody - who is more familiar with hamsadwani than hamsanadham - to think the song is in hamsadwani?

For the record, i second indrajith, mythila and vijay's opinions.
(this would be my last post on this topic.)

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Vijay, were you specifically referring to my reference to Karnataka Khamas for the song 'Unthanin Paadal' (Raakkayil Koyil)? I genuinely feel that it is correct. It is NOT swaras alone that led me to believe that the song is based on Karnataka Khamas raagam, although the swaras used in the song are Sa, Ga3, Ma1, Pa, Dha2, and Ni2. It's also that the song had the same bhavam as you call it that 'Koottathile Koyil Puraa' had.

Anyway, people who are more expert than me can listen to the song and give their input. Will be much appreciated.

By the by, Indrajith, could you pls. tell us how you figured the song 'Othaiyile Ninnadhenna' from Vanajaa Girijaa is based on raagam Yadhukulakhambhodhi? It's not about my having the last word; I'm really interested in knowing the raaga characteristics in the song. I never heard the song before, and there's no guarantee I will ever hear this song.

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Another question: how is it that a song may be played using Sa, Ri2, Ga3, Pa, Dha2 and Ni3, and have the grammar of Shankarabharanam? Doesn't omission of Ma1 make a big difference in the tune's flavor? Thus, wouldn't the melody have to be called by a different name than Shankarabharanam? (btw, this scale can be called Aanandharoopa or Suranandhini, courtesy of royal carpet Karnatik site)

I mean, I understand how even using anya swaras a song can still retain a certain raaga flavor. For instance, 'Kathum Kaathal' from Kattumarakaran uses the notes of Sarasangi and a few extra notes like Sadhaarana Gaandhaaram and Chathusruthi Dhaivatam, but when I hear the song I hear Sarasangi raagam.

What if you wrote a song intended to be based on Revathi raagam, and intermittently used Dha1 for decoration (more specifically, for gamakam of the Pa or the Ni)? Would the raaga still be Revathi?

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Purv, not necessarily Undhanin paadal song but some of your earlier lists like the one here
http://tfmpage.com/forum/23893.ros.html

-doesnt make much sense. Mere note-mapping exercises, to try to map a song like "kaali perungaaya dabba" with no depth/bhaavam in the tune whatsoever to rishabapriya or some-x-or-y-saveri. You need to listen to carnatic krithis in those rare ragas first, develop a sense for the characteristic usages/flavor and see if they have been brought out well in those TFM songs. Many IR songs have flat notes, devoid of the gamakas that are the speciality/defining characteristic as far as carnatic music is concerned. So it makes no sense to map those songs to some unknown raga and feel happy about it. We are just deluding ourselves. The MDs themselves might be unaware of such scales. On the other hand, for something a bit more classical like "karaiyaadha manamundo" I can understand the need to map.

Finally, I suggest that you listen to more TFM songs from the 60s as well in sites like musicindiaonline.com, if you are serious about raga usages and such. If you like Ravindran, you would love GR/MSV/KVM's usage of ragas

Oldposts · Veteran Hubber Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 18655

Indrajith & Haris,
Why this negative air?. I just said am not sure about the raga bcoz i've heard the song only once. I also said "may be I shud listen to it a couple of more times." I wonder if it warrants words like "Madness". That really sucks.

I am in this forum to gain knowledge in an area am interested in, but not an expert at. So lets not argue about this anymore here in this forum.Hope you guys would agree.